World must fix climate in less than 10 years: U.N.

[LiberalNation]

I disagree with the irreversible part, it may take say a couple million years but if snowball earth and all the other earth climate shifts reversed a slight global rise in temp shouldn't have any prob doing so.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071127/...OfyflyVLx34T0D

BRASILIA (Reuters) - Unless the international community agrees to cut carbon emissions by half over the next generation, climate change is likely to cause large-scale human and economic setbacks and irreversible ecological catastrophes, a U.N. report said on Tuesday.

[contracycle]

Take a look at Venus. That is the result of a runaway, self-reinforcing process. Because it is self-reinforcing, it will resist attempts to change it. It is indeed quite possible for climate change on earth to be completely and totally irreversible.

[thaanatos]

Originally Posted by contracycle

Take a look at Venus. That is the result of a runaway, self-reinforcing process. Because it is self-reinforcing, it will resist attempts to change it. It is indeed quite possible for climate change on earth to be completely and totally irreversible.

really?....before you posted, I would have argued it was because of where Venus orbits the Sun.........

[contracycle]

And "where Venus orbits the sun" is effectively "the amount of infalling energy it receives as opposed that which it radiates". Which is exactly the same process we are dealing with here. We have put so much CO2 in the atmosphere we are now radiating less, and trapping more.

[clownboy]

This is like worrying about tying your shoes when your feet are about to be cut off. I'll remind you that just ONE good volcanic eruption will put more CO2, methane, gases into the atmosphere than man the species has done in all of it's existence. Mother Nature has been placid and kind for a geologic moment in time, that moment is close to over and no amount of conservation will change that.

[Spyder Jerusalem]

Sounds like a real good reason ta get the fuck off this rock an start lookin fer other places ta fuck up!
The Moon, Mars, other star systems.

The worse it gets here, the better those places look.

So every time I throw trash out the window of my gas guzlin 72 Dodge Charger (w/a 4 barrel v8), I feel like I'm propellin the future destiny of humanity!

[donquixote99]

World must fix climate in less than 10 years: U.N.

Should it be done? Uncertain.
Can it be done? Dubious.
Will it be done? No, definately not, not the slightest chance.
Plan accordingly.

[Bateman]

Originally Posted by clownboy

This is like worrying about tying your shoes when your feet are about to be cut off. I'll remind you that just ONE good volcanic eruption will put more CO2, methane, gases into the atmosphere than man the species has done in all of it's existence. Mother Nature has been placid and kind for a geologic moment in time, that moment is close to over and no amount of conservation will change that.

And that, boys and girls, is the plain truth.

I am so sick and tired of people, and the media for that matter, telling us we have this amount of time to fix things, or that amount of time. People who think that we as a species can do anything to noticeably impact climate change are living in a fantasy world and have zero appreciation of scale. The best thing we can do is attempt to adapt to the inevitable.

[Bateman]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

World must fix climate in less than 10 years: U.N.

Should it be done? Uncertain.
Can it be done? Dubious.
Will it be done? No, definately not, not the slightest chance.
Plan accordingly.

Excellent advice, Don. I vaguely recall you dont like me much, ( who does? Well, Spyder apparently....thnx Spyder) but I'm not one to take these things personally.

[Anonymous Idiot Savant]

Originally Posted by clownboy

This is like worrying about tying your shoes when your feet are about to be cut off. I'll remind you that just ONE good volcanic eruption will put more CO2, methane, gases into the atmosphere than man the species has done in all of it's existence. Mother Nature has been placid and kind for a geologic moment in time, that moment is close to over and no amount of conservation will change that.

Originally Posted by Bateman

And that, boys and girls, is the plain truth.

...

Gotta hand it to Rush Limbaugh, he sure knows how to sell some serious BS.

Comparison of CO2 emissions from volcanoes vs. human activities.
Scientists have calculated that volcanoes emit between about 130-230 million tonnes (145-255 million tons) of CO2 into the atmosphere every year (Gerlach, 1999, 1992). This estimate includes both subaerial and submarine volcanoes, about in equal amounts. Emissions of CO2 by human activities, including fossil fuel burning, cement production, and gas flaring, amount to about 22 billion tonnes per year (24 billion tons) [ ( Marland, et al., 1998) - The reference gives the amount of released carbon (C), rather than CO2.]. Human activities release more than 150 times the amount of CO2 emitted by volcanoes--the equivalent of nearly 17,000 additional volcanoes like Kilauea (Kilauea emits about 13.2 million tonnes/year)

Brought to you by THA MUTHA FUCKIN US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY, DAWG!

http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Hazards/Wh...as/volgas.html

[donquixote99]

Bateman, you do try so hard to be unlikable. I must be your favorite guy.

[parihaka]

Ho hum.

http://mysite.verizon.net/mhieb/WVFo...ouse_data.html

Actual data you'll note, not the political/profit motivated hysteria from those seeking to cash in.

[LiberalNation]

Originally Posted by Anonymous Idiot Savant

... Gotta hand it to Rush Limbaugh, he sure knows how to sell some serious BS.

Yeah but what about one of those super massives volcanoes like yellowstone the history, discovery, and all the other tv channels keep talkin about.

and that's leaving out the threat of a giant space rock impact, gamma ray burst, sun blowing up, moon leaving, and all the rest. I'd say we are pretty well screwed either way you look at it.

[Anonymous Idiot Savant]

Originally Posted by LiberalNation

Yeah but what about one of those super massives volcanoes like yellowstone the history, discovery, and all the other tv channels keep talkin about.

and that's leaving out the threat of a giant space rock impact, gamma ray burst, sun blowing up, moon leaving, and all the rest. I'd say we are pretty well screwed either way you look at it.

Because we're talking about things we can reasonably controll whereas you're talking about things we can't.

Its like disregarding the health risks from smoking 2 packs of cigs a day because the earth might be hit by a killer asteroid.

[Anonymous Idiot Savant]

LOL water vapor....

Dude, the green house effect is part of the natural system that makes life on this planet possible, the problem isn't the water vapor which freely cycles through this system at a fairly fixed rate (if it didn't we wouldn't even be alive) its the megatons of extra MAN MADE CO2 and other crap that can't be processed fast enough which then gets stuck and backs up the system.

Actually I shouldn't say it can't be processed fast enough, but rather that the water vapor and other natural systems that act to counter balance it are going to kill us in the process. My bad.

[clownboy]

Originally Posted by Anonymous Idiot Savant

Brought to you by THA MUTHA FUCKIN US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY, DAWG!

So, that's the baseline WITHOUT major eruptions. Add in eruptions like Krakatoa and you'll start to get the picture.

In addition to the gases that come out of volcanoes, there are large amounts of solid materials ejected, typically the smaller particles of dust reach the highest levels in the atmosphere. For strong vertical eruptions, dust can be propelled up into the stratosphere, above 17 kilometers. Once there, the suspended dust particles can block solar radiation, effectively heating up the stratosphere while the lower troposphere cools. This eruptive cooling was first noted by Ben Franklin in 1783 while he was in Europe, and he attributed the cooling to eruption of Laki on Iceland that year. The most important eruptions for influencing climate are massive vertical eruptions, which propel material into the stratosphere. Examples include the 1815 eruption of Tambora, which gave out 30-150 cubic kilometers of material and the 1883 eruption of Krakatoa. The eruption of Mt. Mazama which was the volcano preceding the collapsed caldera of Crater Lake, Oregon erupted in about 4000 B.C., sending out 5 cubic miles of material, more than 100 times that produced by the 1980 eruption of Mt. St. Helens.

Read all about it

And those aren't the supervolcanos, figure times a thousand for those.

My point is that we need to prepare to carry on in spite of an extinction-level geologic event. The sands are running out on that hourglass, all the early warning signs are there. Spyder is right about establishing a presence off world, it's stupid to have all your species eggs in one violent basket if you can avoid it. We have to lay down our bet, which is going to happen first. Are we going to do everything we can right now to develop the technologies that will enable us to live despite the inevitable geologic maelstrom and to secure our species survival by spreading off-world, or are we gonna spend that time reducing CO2 output.

If your answer is to do both, mankind as a group doesn't appear to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

[contracycle]

Originally Posted by clownboy

This is like worrying about tying your shoes when your feet are about to be cut off. I'll remind you that just ONE good volcanic eruption will put more CO2, methane, gases into the atmosphere than man the species has done in all of it's existence. Mother Nature has been placid and kind for a geologic moment in time, that moment is close to over and no amount of conservation will change that.

This is totally irrelevant. You are waving alarmist scare stories as an excuse for inaction.

[contracycle]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

World must fix climate in less than 10 years: U.N.

Should it be done? Uncertain.
Can it be done? Dubious.
Will it be done? No, definately not, not the slightest chance.
Plan accordingly.

And whats your "plan", buy a coffin and a plot? Becuase if your outline is correct, that is all you are going to need.

Get realistic please. It's too late for this sort of bullshit.

[contracycle]

Originally Posted by clownboy

My point is that we need to prepare to carry on in spite of an extinction-level geologic event. The sands are running out on that hourglass, all the early warning signs are there. Spyder is right about establishing a presence off world, it's stupid to have all your species eggs in one violent basket if you can avoid it. We have to lay down our bet, which is going to happen first. Are we going to do everything we can right now to develop the technologies that will enable us to live despite the inevitable geologic maelstrom and to secure our species survival by spreading off-world, or are we gonna spend that time reducing CO2 output.

They are the SAME GOAL. There is no prospect we will get anyone off this planet and into stable orbital habitats within the timescale we have available to address global warming. Your agenda is a recipe for species suicide.

[donquixote99]

I am not taking a position at this time as to whether the species faces 'suicide' or any comparable cataclysm. BTW, same tired refrain, people commit suicide, but a species doesn't and can't commit anything.

Caring about what happens to the species is based the same instinct as caring what happens to one's family, just abstracted out. But while I can take some effective action at the family level, I don't think there's poop I can do aboout the species.

I stand by my statement: what advocates are saying is necessary within 10 years to avert climate change will not happen, probably never, definately not within 10 years. If the alternative is cataclysm, then fasten your seat belts.