Do you believe the US Government was involved in the September 11th attacks?

[Justin]

Wondering...

[sarmajor]

Yes ...Pearl Harbour was the US administration's wet dream in 1940.

They knew that it was coming but ensured that the nation was surprised and hurt enough so that they would immediately jump into high gear to support the administration's agenda.

With what we now know it is lucky that most of the people involved are dead (and a great many Americans have no idea whatsoever of what is common knowledge amongst historians) - otherwise impeachments could be in the air.

It was successful and only some 4,000 Americans died in the 'surprise' attack.

9/11 was Pearl Harbour reborn

[Underhill]

Conspiracy Theorist Unite!

[sarmajor]

Conspiracy Theorist Unite!

Underhill .... despite what you may think the sacrifuce of Pearl Harbour is accepted as fact by historians and former members of the intelligence community.

I have read a number of books written by insiders which attest to that fact - and have sighted much documentary evidence.

Not only that but if it quacks like a duck ..............

And, in the event remote event that it was not a conspiracy - it was gross monumental incompetence (worthy of impeachment) from the President down.

Only the fact that it culminated in actions that were in America's best interests (entry into WW11 with resulting super power status) engendered the whitewash.

Just another instance of the end justifying the means.

The jury is still out as to whether 9/11 was in the same league.

But then, ignorance is bliss.

[Underhill]

Makes perfect sense if you believe that the leaders of the time had no conscience. And it's not like gross incompetance is a new thing in the inteligence world.

[Darwins Friend]

Considering the average keel-lay year for the ships lost at Pearl in 41’ was 1928, the US Navy was either in on it or the luckiest bastards in the history of naval warfare - having their precious carriers out on patrol.

31 PBY's in port - all with 1,200 mile ranges, setting on the tarmack or in the bay. Three on patrol - well south of Pearl? Okaaaay. It was Sunday, after all.

[sarmajor]

Added to this, Darwin, that British Royal Naval intelligence (based in Hong Kong), MI5, the US Navy and the US Army had all (quite separately) cracked the Japanese naval code and the Japanese diplomatic code and were reading their messages before the recipients.

In a number of books that I have read written by insiders I have sighted copies of the actual messages in Japanese - and their english translations.

The code breakers knew for an absolute fact that the Japanese aircraft carrier fleet had, quite suspiciously, ceased signal transmissions for a couple of weeks and disappeared from the face of the earth when, previously, the air was alive with their routine messages.

It was then located (through signal intercepts) heading east - even to the point when it had well and truly passed the half way mark to Hawaii.

They read the message telling the Japanese delegation in Washington to burn their papers and that the negotiations had failed.

A message was then sent which was an order to convey a following message to the US at (and not before) 1.00pm -.... I am quoting that time from memory.

Incidentally, because the message was long - and they were short of deciphering clerks and in the confusion of burning papers and packing up - it was deciphered and delivered late - after the actual attack. It was a formal declaration of war intended to be delivered just before the attack started and before the US had time to do anything about it.

Also, why were all the us bombers, recon and fighter planes destroyed on the ground in the Phillipines after they had received news that Japanese troop ships had been sighted heading for Malaya.

You do not have to be Einstein to draw your own conclusions to these absolute facts (not conspiracy theories) and numerous others of the same ilk.

If, by the remote chance that it was not a setup to galvanise the American people into WW11 - why were not a number of people tried for treason - or impeached?

Another problem was that Churchill kept quiet because it was in British interests to let the Japanese attach proceed and the considerable rivalry between the US army (which then included the air corps - there not being a US air force) and the US navy who were more interested in their own empires than in the general good.

[sarmajor]

Makes perfect sense if you believe that the leaders of the time had no conscience

Underhill ... do you believe that the leaders now have a conscience?

[Underhill]

Good point.

[Darwins Friend]

Originally Posted by Underhill

Makes perfect sense if you believe that the leaders of the time had no conscience. And it's not like gross incompetance is a new thing in the inteligence world.

Franklin and Winston did exactly what they needed to do to save their countries.

Cold fact - but real.

[frozen]

Originally Posted by sarmajor

Also, why were all the us bombers, recon and fighter planes destroyed on the ground in the Phillipines after they had received news that Japanese troop ships had been sighted heading for Malaya.

Pop - there goes the conspiracy again. If you are forewarned that you're going to be attacked, why not move the bulk of your forces elsewhere to fight another day? Any US losses at Pearl or elsewhere would have legitimised retaliation, so why allow such a sweeping defeat to take place?

As for Darwin's Friend commenting on it being Sunday, I can believe exactly that - the boys were enjoying the weekend in Hawaii, well away from all that war stuff. Had the Russians made the Cold War hot on a friday night, the vast majority of British forces in Germany would have been in a bar.

[Darwins Friend]

Sending 30 aircraft out at dawn on patrol would have discovered the Japanese task-force. The element of surprise would have ceased to exist. Twelve degrees would all they would have had to cover - on a 600-mile leg. That would have sent the enemy fleet for home - immediately.

The ships that got sent to the bottom of the bay were large enough to make the giant awaken. The rest is history.

[frozen]

Originally Posted by Darwins Friend

Sending 30 aircraft out at dawn on patrol would have discovered the Japanese task-force. The element of surprise would have ceased to exist. Twelve degrees would all they would have had to cover - on a 600-mile leg. That would have sent the enemy fleet for home - immediately.

The ships that got sent to the bottom of the bay were large enough to make the giant awaken. The rest is history.

Has it been proven they'd turn for home if spotted? What was standard operating procedure for a Sunday at Pearl? Or how about a hypothetical - if the US knew where the Japanese carriers were, why not try and get them as they exfiltrated in a Midway-esque type manoever?

[Darwins Friend]

Originally Posted by frozen

Has it been proven they'd turn for home if spotted? What was standard operating procedure for a Sunday at Pearl? Or how about a hypothetical - if the US knew where the Japanese carriers were, why not try and get them as they exfiltrated in a Midway-esque type manoever?

SOP for Sunday was just what it always was on December 7, 1941.

With the traffic that had been coming from Washington and elsewhere, for weeks, what would you have done with those PBY’s? What would any rational person do with them? How about the way the Air Corps had their aircraft parked on the fields that morning - and for weeks previous?

Someone instructed everything to do SOP that weekend.

Would they have turned around if discovered. Ask a chicken if he has a pecker for a face.

Their admiral was educated in Berkley, CA after all.

[sarmajor]

If you are forewarned that you're going to be attacked, why not move the bulk of your forces elsewhere to fight another day? Any US losses at Pearl or elsewhere would have legitimised retaliation, so why allow such a sweeping defeat to take place?

Frozen

They did not move the bulk of their forces elsewhere or do anything to indicate that they knew what was going to happen.

Hawaii had many Japanese inhabitants (including a number of spies who were reporting to Tokyo even as the planes were flying to Pearl) and anything out of the normal would have quickly been reported back to the Japanese fleet which would have turned for home and the causum bellum (I forget the latin term - but you know what I mean) would have been lost.

It is no secret that the Japanese commander had been explicitly ordered to abort the mission if he could not guarantee complete surprise. That is well documented in Japanese official papers declassified after the war.

I have a sneaking feeling that the American authorities may not have anticipated such a large loss of life.

I also think the same about 9/11 as I honestly believe that the US government allowed it to happen - for pretty much the same reason as the attack on Pearl Harbour was allowed to take its course.

[Underhill]

One thing I don't understand.

The Japanese wouldn't need a succesful attack on the US to bring us into the war. Just the fact that they sent their fleet to Pearl would be enough to enrage Americans.

So if they knew the Japanese were coming, why wouldn't you take them out? Do you think Americans are going to be hesitant to go to war with a country who sent a fleet to attack us?

[frozen]

Originally Posted by Underhill

One thing I don't understand.

The Japanese wouldn't need a succesful attack on the US to bring us into the war. Just the fact that they sent their fleet to Pearl would be enough to enrage Americans.

So if they knew the Japanese were coming, why wouldn't you take them out? Do you think Americans are going to be hesitant to go to war with a country who sent a fleet to attack us?

I'm with you Underhill. One Japanese bomb or bullet would have been sufficient to declare war - the loss of several battleships wasn't required. Presuming the US administration did have prior knowledge it is an odd tactic to leave your forces totally defenceless. Even if they wanted to gift the element of surprise to the Japanese, there are many things that can be made to look routine to cover defensive measures. You could say that was what they did by ensuring the carriers were at sea, but if their absence isn't going to delay or postpone an attack, why not get some battleships and airplanes out of the way too? America was too unprepared.

[Darwins Friend]

Originally Posted by sarmajor

I have a sneaking feeling that the American authorities may not have anticipated such a large loss of life.

I also think the same about 9/11 as I honestly believe that the US government allowed it to happen - for pretty much the same reason as the attack on Pearl Harbour was allowed to take its course.

Pretty much perfect.

[Darwins Friend]

Originally Posted by frozen

I'm with you Underhill. One Japanese bomb or bullet would have been sufficient to declare war - the loss of several battleships wasn't required.

This might help guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto

(He knew much of the waking of sleeping giants.)

[sarmajor]

Below is a summary of messages between Tokyo and the Japanese delegation in Washington - which were cracked by US and British intelligence.

These messages are from an official US government publication.

The last long message was the actual declaration of war ordered to be delivered just before the Pearl Harbour attack but, because of Japanese deciphering delays, was delivered after the attack.

As I mentioned in a previous post these messages were read by US and British intelligence at the same time as by the Japanese.

In addition there were far more revealing intercepts of Japanese naval code messages.

Summary of Diplomatic Messages
July-November 1941

After 24 November 1941, events in U.S.-Japanese diplomatic negotiations moved very swiftly to their climax on 7 December. A number of important diplomatic messages passed between Tokyo and Washington between July and November; these are summarized below. These early messages and those exchanged after 24 November which have been selected for inclusion in this appendix are so revealing that it is easy to lose sight of the fact that U.S. officials were often reading these messages at about the same time as the Japanese diplomats. The "War Warning" messages sent by OPNAV beginning on 24 November have also been included in this appendix to insure that the reader fully appreciates their correlation with events occurring in diplomatic circles.
Despite changes in its government, Japan remained committed to the Tripartite Pact with Germany and Italy.
Japan frequently expressed determination to use force against the United States and Great Britain.
Japan established an espionage network in the United States.
Plans for evacuation of Japanese diplomatic, espionage, and newspaper personnel were discussed.
Germany and Italy applied pressure on Japan to provoke war with the U.S.
Japanese attitude toward the U.S. Open Door policy hardened after 16 October when Tojo took over the government. Japan wanted the U.S. to approve Japanese policies in the Far East -- including China and French Indochina -- and restore Japanese trade status with the U.S.
Ambassador Nomura's attempt to resign on 22 October was refused.
On 4 November, Ambassador Saburo Kurusu, sent to help Nomura, was not optimistic that negotiations would be successful. He arrived in Washington on 17 November.
On 5 November, Tokyo established a 25 November deadline for completion of negotiations.
Nomura reported on 10 November on statements from high-ranking politicians and cabinet members (a) that the U.S. was not bluffing, (b) that it was ready for war, (c) that it had reliable reports that Japan would be on the move soon, and (d) that the president and secretary of state believed these reports.
On 19 November 1941, two messages from 15 November were read which discussed plans to evacuate Japanese citizens from the U.S.

-67-

page 68

The messages which follow are arranged in order of transmission. Army messages are indicated with an "A" and Navy messages with an "N." The date given is the date the message was translated.
N 25 Nov A circular message from Tokyo to Washington on 15 November with detailed instructions on how to destroy code machines.
N 28 Nov A circular message from Tokyo to Washington on 19 November with detailed instructions to listen for "Winds Execute" messages to be added to Japanese news broadcasts in case of diplomatic emergencies involving the U.S., England, or Russia. When heard, embassies were to destroy all codes, papers, etc.
N 26 Nov A circular message from Tokyo to Washington on 19 November, sent after above message but translated earlier, contained instructions to listen for an abbreviated "Winds" message in general intelligence broadcasts repeated five times at beginning and end, i.e., only the word East, West, or North would be spoken five times.
A 28 Nov Circular message from Tokyo on 20 November said U.S.-Japanese situation would not "permit any further conciliation by us" and rejected all feelings of optimism.
A 22 Nov Tokyo informed Washington on 22 November that, by 29 November if agreement had not been reached, "things are automatically going to happen."
24 Nov OPNAV message warned of possible Japanese "aggressive movement" toward Philippines, Guam, or any direction.
A 26 Nov Tokyo message to Washington on 26 November contained telephone brevity code to be used because "telegrams take too long." The code covered topics under negotiation, situations, and personalities.
27 Nov OPNAV WAR WARNING message.
A 29 Nov Message on 26 November from Nomura to Tokyo recommended that Japan break diplomatic relations with the U.S. in a formal manner rather than "enter on scheduled operations" without prior announcement particularly since "our intention is a strict military secret." A formal break would avoid responsibility for the "