Bailout the US car industry

[scouser1956]

Let the market decide.
Bailout with money.
Bailout by buying shares.
Bailout by underwriting research into new cars.

[gurutoo]

The UAW has priced itself out of existence. No bailout.

[Black Lance]

Bailout's only work when a short-term problem has been encountered that the industry can will over-come within a reasonable amount of time. Ford and GM haven't been going downhill for a shot amount of time, they've been on the slide for years and years now. I'm opposed to shoveling money at these companies just to postpone the inevitable.

[ninjalooter1701]

Why should we bail out the automobile industry? Why can't we let the market just correct something that has been going very wrong for over 30 years?

[Leo2]

Originally Posted by ninjalooter1701

Why should we bail out the automobile industry? Why can't we let the market just correct something that has been going very wrong for over 30 years?

I don't know much (anything?) about the economics involved, but I tend to agree, based upon this principle.

The US automotive industry makes crap cars. With a few notable exceptions (such as Deusenberg, Cord and Stutz, dating back to pre-historiic times,) the US automobile industry has always made crap cars. The American public, (largely because of a combination of automotive isolationism, and nationalism,) has been gulled into thinking the automotive dinosaurs produced by Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc. are fine motor cars, and have historically been buying this merde without question. The prognosis is that the US automotive industry will continue to produce crap motor cars, unless (a) they go out of business due to insolvency, or (b) no one, not even Americans, are stupid enough to buy these archaic monstrosities any more.

Something similar is happening in Australia, where Ford and GM subsidiaries produce smaller, but equally crude, equaivalents. The Australians are now staying away from them in droves, and the Japanese have been doing very nicely, thank you, in the down-market sector, and the posh Europeans even better in the up-market sector. Both Ford-Australia and GM-Holden will very likely stop local production in the near future, and become importers and retailers of re-badged Japanese/European products.

So letting the US car manufacturers die will be painful in the short term (due to lost jobs) but a merciful release in the long run.

[CockySOB]

None of the bailouts should have been put in place, period. So, no, the automotive industry should not get a bailout.

[Anonymous Idiot Savant]

Originally Posted by gurutoo

The UAW has priced itself out of existence. No bailout.

How much worker wages and health care do you think go into a BMW?

How about all those Toyota's that are built in the US now?

No, perhaps if Chrysler knew how to build a fucking transmission people would be more inclined to buy their cars.

Actually, there never was anything wrong with their transmissions. However you could only put a certain, uncommon type of fluid in them and Chrysler never took the effort beyond a sentence buried in the owners manual to let people know about it before they ruined their transmission by putting other, more common types of fluid in them.

Its stupid shit like this that turned a lot of people off over the decades. People who in turn turned 10 other people off buy telling them about their problems with the cars.

It doesn't matter how high or low your labor costs are if nobody wants to buy your product.

[potter]

I own two GM products and I think both are exceptional. The problem the automakers have is from the 70's & 80's when they built really REALLY crappy cars.

They never got over the stigma. Many people who condemn GM haven't owned one in years. (I cannot vouch for ford or Chrystler) IMO people aren't buying now because they are tapped out.

But, we want free markets, then we should have free markets. No regulation, no bailouts. Unfortunately the biggest crooks already got theirs. The weapons and financial industries have emptied the treasury.

Shall we be fair about it? Since we've bailed out those upper finacial elite who got us into this mess shall we also bail out those industries that will actually have an impact on the middle class?

Tough question.....

[ninjalooter1701]

Originally Posted by potter

I own two GM products and I think both are exceptional. The problem the automakers have is from the 70's & 80's when they built really REALLY crappy cars.

They never got over the stigma. Many people who condemn GM haven't owned one in years. (I cannot vouch for ford or Chrystler) IMO people aren't buying now because they are tapped out.

Potter, "Stigma" to me is hating blacks because you got beat up a few times as a kid.

Condemning GM, in my case, is because I drove three of their fine vehicles, and got no support from the manufacturer, dealer, or the extended warranty plan, when problems happened.

"Oh, yeah, the horns don't work on these cars with driver's side air bags."

"It's your non-factory car alarm (with a 2 milliamp draw) that is draining your battery." Later they found it was the power antenna, after it was out of warranty.

Transmission going at 38,000 miles on a 3/36 warranty.

ABS cylinder going at 42,000 miles on a 3/36 warranty.

Rocker panels falling off at 4000 miles.

Cheap plastic parts that break on the interior of the vehicle, yet cost 50 dollars.

That's just off the top of my head, about one of the three cars.

It's not "stigma," in this case, it's "learning from experience." I learned with over $60,000 of mistakes and poorly spent dollars. In my opinion, it is much more than stigma.

I remember talking to the woman at GMPP, (General Motors Protection Plan). She insisted that GMPP wasn't a part of GM. I asked her how they got the name "GM" of "GMPP." She said it was coincidental. I asked her if I could start "GMIC," which stood for General Motors Ice Cream, and if I could sell it in their parking lot during break. "Oh, that would be trademark infringement."

Indeed.

I watch what's happening to GM with more than a little bit of schadenfreude. If one cent of my money bails out those companies, why...I'll do nothing at all because my voice means nothing.

[Justin]

I think this is one of the very, very, VERY rare cases in which a bailout is appropriate. I think this because it is the US government, imho, that has helped handicap the American auto industry in the first place. However, a bailout should only occur if it is followed by a reappraisal of our trade policy. We MUST apply sensible tariffs to goods coming from nations that practice protectionism....which is, most of our trading partners.

[clownboy]

Bail them out, we're gonna do it anyway, so quit the jawboning and start talking about what their pound of flesh is gonna be. I suggest they be required to make all their vehicles bio-fuel capable from now on. Also require that hybrids use (bio)diesel, not gasoline for their charging engine.

Tie the industry to renewable fuels and we'd be slaying several dragons with one sword.

[Anonymous Idiot Savant]

There is no way the economy can handle the shock of 3 million lost jobs overnight.

[ninjalooter1701]

Originally Posted by Anonymous Idiot Savant

There is no way the economy can handle the shock of 3 million lost jobs overnight.

Nor is there a way to pay for those 3 million jobs, and keeping them afloat, at 10% interest...

[ninjalooter1701]

Originally Posted by clownboy

Bail them out, we're gonna do it anyway, so quit the jawboning and start talking about what their pound of flesh is gonna be. I suggest they be required to make all their vehicles bio-fuel capable from now on. Also require that hybrids use (bio)diesel, not gasoline for their charging engine.

Tie the industry to renewable fuels and we'd be slaying several dragons with one sword.

And we'll force them to keep churning out inferior products, while Japan dominates the quality market.

I just find it so ironic that we want "market driven economies" with "protectionism."

[Justin]

I just find it so ironic that we want "market driven economies" with "protectionism."

What about it do you find ironic? The founders certainly didn't see any contradiction.

[ninjalooter1701]

Originally Posted by Justin

What about it do you find ironic? The founders certainly didn't see any contradiction.

Neither did they about counting blacks as 3/5ths of a person.

Do we now have 3/5ths of a president? Should we have a campaign for the other 2/5ths?

I find the ideals of the Founding Fathers to be incredibly far sighted and visionary in many aspects, and myopic in others.

You mean to tell me you don't see any contradiction?

[Anonymous Idiot Savant]

Originally Posted by ninjalooter1701

Nor is there a way to pay for those 3 million jobs, and keeping them afloat, at 10% interest...

What they're asking for is 4% of the banking/wall street bailout.

If you're eager to see a real depression, letting them file for chapter 11 would be the fastest route to it.

What are you going to do with those 3 million+ people who no longer have a job, health care, or a pension?

If the American auto industry goes down, right now, its taking other sectors with it too.

Its true they fucked up a lot in the past, but quality isn't the issue anymore. Its marketing. We're also about 2 years out from seeing an American electric hybrid hit the streets.

As much as i'd like to stick it to them I see an amazing opportunity to bring about a real economic, environmental, and energy revolution in this country.

[ninjalooter1701]

Originally Posted by Anonymous Idiot Savant

What they're asking for is 4% of the banking/wall street bailout.

If you're eager to see a real depression, letting them file for chapter 11 would be the fastest route to it.

What are you going to do with those 3 million+ people who no longer have a job, health care, or a pension?

If the American auto industry goes down, right now, its taking other sectors with it too.

Its true they fucked up a lot in the past, but quality isn't the issue anymore. Its marketing. We're also about 2 years out from seeing an American electric hybrid hit the streets.

As much as i'd like to stick it to them I see an amazing opportunity to bring about a real economic, environmental, and energy revolution in this country.

And they'll produce shit vehicles until the MARKET forces them to do otherwise...

[Justin]

Neither did they about counting blacks as 3/5ths of a person.

Do we now have 3/5ths of a president? Should we have a campaign for the other 2/5ths?

I'm just glad it's you who gets to decide which of their ideals is "visionary" and "far sighted", and which aren't.

Protectionism served this country well for a very long time. Only after we've abandoned it have we seen our manufacturing, much of our national wealth, and even our sovereignty melt away.