Remember Holocaust at Auschwitz

[flogger]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Anyone who wishes. I'm very willing to agree that all victims of man's inhumanity are worthy of grief.

Is it your point that there is something wrong with remembering the Jewish casualties? There was a particular history, and an especially effective effort, in their case.

No my point is they are given far more 'remembrance' (especially in the US) than other groups as it helps assist US foreign policy in the region today. I'd wager most US schoolkids think WW2 in Europe was mainly about the holocaust and nothing else as a consequence the 'poor little Israel' flag flys well in the US whatever they do. I'd doubt most even know Russia was ever on our side much less remember the price in blood she paid for our freedom frankly.

[Bateman]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

Shut up, Bateman.

stfu yourself.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by flogger

No my point is they are given far more 'remembrance' (especially in the US) than other groups as it helps assist US foreign policy in the region today. I'd wager most US schoolkids think WW2 in Europe was mainly about the holocaust and nothing else as a consequence the 'poor little Israel' flag flys well in the US whatever they do. I'd doubt most even know Russia was even on our side frankly.

In other words, despite the 'no,' you do see something wrong with it. You see it as propaganda, not as sincere or fitting.

I think it would be fitting if we seperate 'remembrance' from 'linkage to Israel.' Even though Catwoman does not.

[flogger]

Originally Posted by donquixote99

In other words, despite the 'no,' you do see something wrong with it. You see it as propaganda, not as sincere or fitting.

I think it would be fitting if we seperate 'remembrance' from 'linkage to Israel.' Even though Catwoman does not.

Pardon my cynicism but I think its hard to deny that the political linkage is there frankly and that holocaust remembrance is used to bolster it.

[donquixote99]

Originally Posted by flogger

Pardon my cynicism but I think its hard to deny that the political linkage is there frankly and that holocaust remembrance is used to bolster it.

I didn't deny it. I just said that it is not ncessary to make it. I don't make it.

I would think it fitting if 'holocaust remembrance' could be done without either linkages to Israel (Catwoman) or denunciations of linkage to Israel (you).

[sinterest]

Originally Posted by flogger

No my point is they are given far more 'remembrance' (especially in the US) than other groups as it helps assist US foreign policy in the region today. I'd wager most US schoolkids think WW2 in Europe was mainly about the holocaust and nothing else as a consequence the 'poor little Israel' flag flys well in the US whatever they do. I'd doubt most even know Russia was ever on our side much less remember the price in blood she paid for our freedom frankly.

I agree. And I believe the holocaust and anti-semitism are used to prevent even some discussion here in the US. When one side prevents discussion, I say it's likely that side has no leg to stand on.


The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy[1] is the title of a book by John Mearsheimer, Professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago, and Stephen Walt, Professor of International Relations at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, published in late August 2007 by Farrar, Strauss, and Giroux. It was a New York Times Best Seller.[2]
The book describes the lobby as a "loose coalition of individuals and organizations who actively work to steer U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction".[3] The book "focuses primarily on the lobby's influence on U.S. foreign policy and its negative effect on American interests".[4] The authors also argue that "the lobby's impact has been unintentionally harmful to Israel as well".[5]
The authors argue that although "the boundaries of the Israel lobby cannot be identified precisely", it "has a core consisting of organizations whose declared purpose is to encourage the U.S. government and the American public to provide material aid to Israel and to support its government's policies, as well as influential individuals for whom these goals are also a top priority".[6] They note that "not..every American with a favorable attitude to Israel is part of the lobby",[7] and that although "the bulk of the lobby is comprised of Jewish Americans",[8] there are many American Jews who are not part of the lobby, and the lobby also includes Christian Zionists.[9] They also claim a drift of important groups in "the lobby" to the right,[10] and overlap with the neoconservatives.[11]
….......................








In April 2006 Philip Weiss discussed some of the background to the creation of the paper in an article in The Nation.[20]
Mearsheimer and Walt argue that "No lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical".[14] They argue that "in its basic operations, it is no different from interest groups like the Farm Lobby, steel and textile workers, and other ethnic lobbies. What sets the Israel Lobby apart is its extraordinary effectiveness." According to Mearsheimer and Walt, the "loose coalition" that makes up the Lobby has "significant leverage over the Executive branch," as well as the ability to make sure that the "Lobby's perspective on Israel is widely reflected in the mainstream media." They claim that AIPAC in particular has a "stranglehold on the U.S. Congress," due to its "ability to reward legislators and congressional candidates who support its agenda, and to punish those who challenge it."
Mearsheimer and Walt decry what they call misuse of "the charge of anti-Semitism," and argue that pro-Israel groups place great importance on "controlling debate" in American academia; they maintain, however, that the Lobby has yet to succeed in its "campaign to eliminate criticism of Israel from college campuses" (see Campus Watch and U.S. Congress Bill H.R. 509). The authors conclude by arguing that when the Lobby succeeds in shaping U.S. policy in the Middle East, then "Israel's enemies get weakened or overthrown, Israel gets a free hand with the Palestinians, and the United States does most of the fighting, dying, rebuilding, and paying."[13]




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy


'

[Lucas]

Good book. I love the irony when someone says it's 'anti-Semitic'. These people usually haven't read the book anyway, but it's still ironic.

[sinterest]

Originally Posted by Lucas

Good book. I love the irony when someone says it's 'anti-Semitic'. These people usually haven't read the book anyway, but it's still ironic.

They even agree with Zan. It's not good for Israel either.

[Zan de Man]

It must be a good - and extremely wise - book then.

[sarmajor]

Fantasy. Israel is the Jews' greatest weakness at the moment. And if the world turned against them again, it would last about five minutes.

I have to agree with Zan on that.

Despite their nuclear armament it is only the support of the powerful against the millions (if not billions) of enemies of the Israel state that is allowing it to survive.

At the moment Israel is doing all that it can to negate such support.

Without the support of the US Israel would be a lost cause.

[Lucas]

What? Israel would be perfectly fine and independent with or without US aid.

[Siya]

I think we could all agree that Israel ( as great a country it might be in such a situation) is a disadvantage for the Jews

[Lucas]

It's an advantage and a disadvantage. A very large advantage and a very large disadvantage. Depending on your specific situation, it can be either. Or, most likely, neither.

[CatWoman]

Originally Posted by Lucas

It's an advantage and a disadvantage. A very large advantage and a very large disadvantage. Depending on your specific situation, it can be either. Or, most likely, neither.

are you talking in code?

[Lucas]

Yes, anti-Semitic code.

[Zan de Man]

Israel could, of course, last without US aid, but it would be a very different Israel. It would have to decide between the IDF and food. It imports nearly all of its cereals, fish and meat.

[Lucas]

It really doesn't matter what it imports, it only matters what it exports vs. what it imports. I know it's unpopular in these parts, but Israel would be very successful and have the military strength not only to survive but to dominate it's area with or without US help.

[Zan de Man]

I don't think we'll find out any time soon.

[CatWoman]

Originally Posted by Zan de Man

Israel could, of course, last without US aid,.

So your aim is to punish Israel and it's Jewish citizens by cutting aid? May be the English taxpayers should stop subsidising Wales and we will see a very third world Wales. And NI for that matter.

[sinterest]

Originally Posted by CatWoman

So your aim is to punish Israel and it's Jewish citizens by cutting aid? May be the English taxpayers should stop subsidising Wales and we will see a very third world Wales. And NI for that matter.

I don't want to punish Israel, Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, South Korea, Germany or any of the countries to whom we send either money and/or troops. Rather, I wonder why we feel we have to, especially since we are borrowing from China to do so.

On the other hand, I understand why we have Pakistan on our dole, but can't figure out how it is in our interests to give even more to Israel.
I hope you can enlighten me as I am perplexed.